comment #1

drgogol says ...

Easy, mate: http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/pranayama/

comment #2

BurmaShave says ...

Caviar are eggs! The beginning of life at the end! It's so explicit! Durrrrrrrr. It goes on and on and on and on...

comment #3

jeffmcm says ...

It's not important if Tony Soprano is dead or alive because he's a fictional character who only existed on a screen. Sakharov's position sounds good to me, because Tony, regardless of what happened to him, was dead as a stone inside and had been for a long time.

comment #4

gruver1 says ...

Wells to jeffmcm: As corrupt and sociopathic and totally lacking in compassion for his victims as Tony Soprano was, I liked him and even related to him more on a human-to-human basis than I ever have to you and your priggish personality and judgmental butt-plug value system.

comment #5

Josh Massey says ...

Wow, Wells - before I got to your last paragraph, I was prepared to write almost the exact same thing.

(I do, however, think he lived.)

comment #6

lazarus says ...

I don't think it's bullshit or evasive at all. He doesn't say 25-40 years, he says 6 months. I think the most obvious reading of the blackout is that Tony's life is going to be cut short. At some point int he not-too-distant future. This goes along with what the DP was saying. He's not going to have a heart attack playing in the garden with his grandchildren. He's not even going to have a heart attack sitting alone with his regrets and guilt. He's going to live his life in fear until the inevitable happens. That Chase chose not to end it at that eventual moment doesn't change the notion that it's coming sooner than Tony would like it to.

comment #7

KeithNYC says ...

If Tony didn't die Chase sure as hell directed, edited and scored the scene to lead to the interpretation that he did die. He establishes this through the door ringing/Tony POV pattern in the diner:
1)Tony walks in and bell rings, we get his POV of him looking at the tables then cut back to Tony's face and then a very strange cut of "us" looking at Tony from the same shot as Tony was just seeing except now he is sitting down right in the middle of the frame. This is to show us that Tony's vision will be directly to the door. The pattern then begins:
2)Bell ring, we cut to closeup of Tony looking up (this lasts 2-3 seconds) and then cut to a lady w/ curly hair entering from Tony's POV.
3)Bell ring, we cut to closeup of Tony looking up (this lasts 2-3 seconds) and then cut to a guy with a USA hat entering from Tony's POV.
4)Bell ring, we cut to closeup of Tony looking up (this lasts 2-3 seconds) and then cut to Carmela entering from Tony's POV.
5)Bell ring, we cut to closeup of Tony looking up (this lasts 2-3 seconds) and then cut to a Members Only Guy (MOG) entering followed by AJ from Tony's POV.
6)Bell ring, we cut to closeup of Tony looking up (this lasts 2-3 seconds) and then cut to Darkness and no sound from Tony's POV (based on the pattern the darkness is where Tony's POV should be) He should be seeing Meadow but he was shot in the back of the head an instant before the cut to his POV. Why?...
7)Just before #6, MOG gets up and walks towards the bathroom. Chase makes it clear in the shot that the bathroom is behind Tony. MOG probably went in there to get an easier "shot". Now some argue, that T would see MOG from his peripheral vision, maybe, but remember he is distracted by Meadow's entrance.
8)Now there are other shots of the door in the background but NEVER from the same shot after Tony looks up. In fact we never hear a bell ringing besides in that pattern. There are some background shots of the door opening but look closely it is always somebody exiting. We also hear the sound of the "pivot" of the door in another shot but never clearly hear a bell. What about the black guys you say? the shot of them is not the same shot as Tony's POV after the bell rings and we never see them actually enter the diner (somoene is exiting right behind them). There are also arguably (as some have pointed out) other Tony POV shots in this scene. That may be true but it is NEVER the same shot as after the bell rings and Tony looks up (in another words it does not distrupt the pattern).
9) Just before the bell rings for MOG. There is a shot of the door (identical to the other Tony POV shots) that shows MOG pushing the door before Tony looks up. Now ask yourself, the only time we see someone approach and open the door from that shot BEFORE the bell rings is MOG (and I know you can slightly see AJ behind him but we never actually see AJ touch that door until after the bell rings). Why is that unless the MOG is supposed to be different then everyone else that enters? That is the director telling you to pay attention to this man, he is special. Now once the bell rings, Tony looks up and the pattern continues, it is not disrupted.
10)Chase then has AJ and MOG enter at almost the exact same time (they almost seem to bump into each other). Why? probably to imply that MOG followed AJ to get to the diner.
11)Only 2 tracking shots in the scene. One when Tony enter the diner and one when MOG enters the bathroom.
12)After MOG looks at something. We cut to the shot of Carm and AJ who are conspicously sitting far apart. Why? b.c we see MOG looking in their direction. MOG is always seen in this shot between them a little out of focus.
13)The Meadow coming late scene gives Tony the chance to look up so the pattern will continue and also to distract Tony as he gets it in the back of the head.
14)None of the other patrons are ever showed looking at Tony nor do they get as many shots as MOG.
15)10 second blackout seems to signify death (Chase actually wanted 30 seconds!!)
16)Not to mention the flashback of Bacala's line "you never hear it coming, right?" at the end of the previous episode.
Chase whacked somebody without showing it. Clearly showing off for his career in film. He also had no interest in showing Tony's brains blown out in front of his family. Done, good luck in films Mr.Chase.

comment #8

alynch says ...

"It's not important if Tony Soprano is dead or alive because he's a fictional character who only existed on a screen."

Jesus jeffmcm, do you just hate fun or something. I just can't imagine how any true film or television fan could actually believe such a statement. You're saying that since it's a fictional story, there's no need for the content to be scrutinized and examined? What kind of half-ass philosophy for viewing cinema is that?

comment #9

americanrat says ...

It ends with us not knowing whether he is alive or dead - that's unimportant.

What matters is our final view of Tony looking up. He makes whoever it is who comes through the door, no doubt. The hangtime of that shot is more than enough time for him to react - and there's no reaction.

There is no look of joy that he is looking at his first born child.

There is no look of fear that he is facing the assassin's bullet.

There is just the dim dull look of a beast devoid of any humanity at all. A bear chewing on a bone would look the same way at its firstborn cub or a hunter in orange would express more emotion.

And that's the point, end of story, who cares whether he lives or dies. And from that, you can extrapolate out what Chase is saying about America and our culture and society. Jaded and ruined, incapable of feeling either love for a child or fear of mayhem and carnage.

Chase can say whatever he wants - that the clues are there or whatever BS, red herrings for the ninnies that turn off Sopranos and turn on CSI or Law and Order or the dim bulbs still obsessed about some dumb plot point - but the real fact is he didn't like neat endings and there is a lot more in that final scene to chew on than whether he lived or died.

comment #10

p.Vice says ...

Think about the second to last episode on Season 3 where Patsy Parisi shanghais Gloria and tells her, "The last face you see won't be Tony's. It'll be mine. And it won't be cinematic. " The episode ends one scene after it should, not on Tony but with a shot of Patsy putting a bag of groceries into his car.

Is this ending supposed to be interpreted literally, as in it's so damn important to the plot of this show that we need to see Patsy putting groceries in his car? Or is Chase doing a little meta-riff for us in the audience based on what Patsy told Gloria?

Now think how that kind of moment might relate to Chase's intentions with the final scene of the final episode. What, he might do something funky like that again? NO!!!!! Maybe it is supposed to be taken that "Tony (lives/dies/eats/farts) right now". Or is it maybe, just fucking maybe, meant to intone that in the midst of this happy family dinner, Tony's problems with NY and his crew tenuously solved yet again, that a CLOUD OF DARKNESS HANGS INEVITABLY OVER THIS FAMILY FOR THE SINS THEY'VE COMMITTED AND WILL ALWAYS BE RIGHT THERE NEXT TO THEM. THEY WILL NEVER ESCAPE.

I guess I'll take the caviar. Jeffrey, enjoy your Whopper.

comment #11

jeffmcm says ...

Alynch, I must not have made myself clear enough. Tony Soprano is a character but he's also David Chase's metaphorical stand-in for upper-middle-class American guys who lie to themselves and live lives of constant moral compromise and convince themselves that it's no big deal. If you think of The Sopranos as a show in which you're wondering 'ooh, I wonder who's going to get killed this week' then I can see why it would be a matter of grave importance as to whether or not Tony was one of that number. If you see the show as a fictional construction in which the characters, finely drawn as they are, are still metaphors, then it's a lot more satisfying to think of what Tony's death or survival represent in a larger artistic scheme. The mere fact 'Tony Died" or "Tony lived" is a lot less interesting than thinking about Tony living forever in a form of limbo, or Tony constantly paranoid, or Tony's life going on and on while the viewer simply doesn't have access to it. Clearly Sakharov is in on this artistic wavelength and can appreciate the show on a level above 'what happened'.

comment #12

Mr. Muckle says ...

Seinfeld went to prison. Do you think he got assraped? I think he got assraped. What do you think? Did he get assraped? All signs point to him getting assraped.

comment #13

jeffmcm says ...

Wells, I don't understand you. You let all manner of abusive bullies, right-wing thugs, and empty-headed nincompoops post here unmolested, but for reasons that I don't comprehend, you've decided to get your hate on for me. I don't even know what 'judgmental butt-plug value system' means, since you clearly just stuck a nasty word in the middle of a phrase. Like I said before, you were perfectly nice that night that George Hickenlooper took us out for drinks and I offered to help you with find someone to teach you Avid or Final Cut.

I guess you don't have to make sense...you're the wind, baby.

comment #14

KeithNYC says ...

Good point VC. I just think the direction and editing of that scene screams out that the darkness is from Tony's POV. I just can't find any other interpretion for the "Set up". Of course we never actually see Tony die so we will never know but there are just so many clues sprinkled throughout the final season.
1)Phil gets killed with a shot in the head that he "never heard coming" right in front of his family (just like Tony if you believe he died)
2)The clues all over Tony's coma dream
A)Steve Buscemi tries to get Tony accept his death by entering the house of his dead loved ones. Tony is about to enter but is called back by a young girl's voice from the trees ("dont go Daddy"). We learn this is actually Meadow's voice in the hospital. We then get about an 8-9 second complete "White screen" (similar to the black out) as Tony comes out of the coma and Meadow is the first person he sees. Meadow has saved Tony. If you believe Tony died, it is the Meadow distraction that actually gives MOG the opportunity to shoot Tony in the head. Meadow is probably the last person he sees and may have indirectly lead to his death. This just seems like a delicious irony that Chase couldn't resist.
B)The sales lady in Tony's coma dream congratulates Finnerty (Tony) on all his continued accomplishments as a salesmen. (i.e Tony always ending up on top (i.e wins the NY/NJ war)). Tony ominously responds "there is always a faster gun" (MOG's gun??)
3)The first episode of the first season titled "Members Only" where Tony gets shot. (a reference to Eugene's jacket). Eugene's wife also tells him to "put a bullet in Tony's head". Eugene is also scene in this episode (w/ his Members Only jacket on) shooting a fat guy eating in a sleazy restaurant. The victims initials are T.S. (Teddy Spiradokis).
4) The episode in the second part of the final season. Gerry Toriciano gets whacked in a restaurant while eating w/ Silvio. This scene is also seems to be shot partially like we are seeing it through Sil's eyes. The sound goes off and all we hear is ringing and get slo-mo of Sil. We then realize Gerry is getting whacked. Sil later tells Tony it was "scary. I didn't know what happened until it was over...wierd". This echoes Bacala's "you never hear it coming" line and seems to foreshadow Tony's demise.
-I dunno I just don't think all of these things are coincidences

comment #15

tholl-yung says ...

Wake up dude, last time we "spoke," you called it a weird cut, now you're calling it a very strange cut. Call it by its name -- it's called a time cut.

comment #16

scooterzz says ...

the tca started it's july sessions today at the bh hotel....on thursday, gandolfini is slated to appear to hype his hbo doc, 'alive day memories'. but i'm guessing that the 200 or so tv critics are going to be looking for 'sopranos' info... i'm looking forward to seeing how he handles the situation.....maybe he'll even pony up an opinion.....

comment #17

Tim says ...

I, for one, am on Team KeithNYC. Nice work man. I love reading about this stuff. In the final episode, Chase proved himself to be the Kubrick of television. Detailed, maddening, provocative and concerned with his point of view and his point of view only.

comment #18

tholl-yung says ...

it's still there, time cut and all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnT7nYbCSvM

comment #19

KeithNYC says ...

Thanks Tim. I am sure Chase is a big fan of Kubrick. I really think he said to himself "How do I pull off the most famous whacking in the history of a TV (or film) in a way that would make it unique and unlike something we have never seen before?? The editing in that scene is really something to be in awe of. The first time I actually followed the pattern it was literally jarring to see that Blackout (I admit I did not discover it myself). Despite the genius of it I still believe Chase should have ended the show with more resonance rather then a debate. In retrospect it really makes perfect sense. Chase really couldn't show Tony dying b/c it is a scene millions of viewers have thought about and wondered how it would exactly play out. How does he live up to those expectations?? He needed another angle and he used the POV pattern to convey that the darkness is from Tony's POV and his death. He rehearsed this idea w/ the Torciano hit which was also unlike any other whacking we have seen. He tried to drive the point home with a 30 second blackout that HBO convinced him to cut to 10. There still other clues that I have not touched on. Look at the opening scene of the final episode. Tony sleeping in an overhead shot like he is in a casket and the alarm goes off w/ funeral music playing. You have all the BobHarris.com stuff which most of is pretty good. The whole final season seems to have an inevitability to it that Tony would die. It does not matter to Chase who killed him b/c it was inevitable. We will never know MOG's motive. You can even go back to the episode that ends the second season ("Funhouse") where Tony's dream reveals Pussy is a rat. Tony in his dream is on the boardwalk and tells his crew he has terminal brain cancer. To save everybody the trouble of hospital visits he lights himself on fire to kill himself. At that instant he then wakes up crying and says "Everything's Black" meaning Chase had this idea of death as nothing but blackness all the way back to the second season. Another clue from the coma dream. The beacon is the light that lead Tony to the "Inn at the Oaks" where he was supposed to die. In Tony's visit to Vegas after he kills Chris he sees that beacon again behind the sun when he is high on peyote. It seems to indicate that Tony's demise could be imminent. I really admire the way Chase laid everything out so that we could all see it once we looked at the entire 6th season as a whole. Remember Chase took nearly 2 years off for this final arc. He wanted us to find this stuff. By naming the guy in the diner "Man with Members Only Jacket" in the credits it was a shout out to look to the opening episode of the final arc-"Members Only". You need to watch all 21 episodes to really appreciate the beauty of the ending.

comment #20

KeithNYC says ...

Thanks Tim. I am sure Chase is a big fan of Kubrick. I really think he said to himself "How do I pull off the most famous whacking in the history of a TV (or film) in a way that would make it unique and unlike something we have never seen before?? The editing in that scene is really something to be in awe of. The first time I actually followed the pattern it was literally jarring to see that Blackout (I admit I did not discover it myself). Despite the genius of it I still believe Chase should have ended the show with more resonance rather then a debate. In retrospect it really makes perfect sense. Chase really couldn't show Tony dying b/c it is a scene millions of viewers have thought about and wondered how it would exactly play out. How does he live up to those expectations?? He needed another angle and he used the POV pattern to convey that the darkness is from Tony's POV and his death. He rehearsed this idea w/ the Torciano hit which was also unlike any other whacking we have seen. He tried to drive the point home with a 30 second blackout that HBO convinced him to cut to 10. There still other clues that I have not touched on. Look at the opening scene of the final episode. Tony sleeping in an overhead shot like he is in a casket and the alarm goes off w/ funeral music playing. You have all the BobHarris.com stuff which most of is pretty good. The whole final season seems to have an inevitability to it that Tony would die. It does not matter to Chase who killed him b/c it was inevitable. We will never know MOG's motive. You can even go back to the episode that ends the second season ("Funhouse") where Tony's dream reveals Pussy is a rat. Tony in his dream is on the boardwalk and tells his crew he has terminal brain cancer. To save everybody the trouble of hospital visits he lights himself on fire to kill himself. At that instant he then wakes up crying and says "Everything's Black" meaning Chase had this idea of death as nothing but blackness all the way back to the second season. Another clue from the coma dream. The beacon is the light that lead Tony to the "Inn at the Oaks" where he was supposed to die. In Tony's visit to Vegas after he kills Chris he sees that beacon again behind the sun when he is high on peyote. It seems to indicate that Tony's demise could be imminent. I really admire the way Chase laid everything out so that we could all see once we looked at the entire 6th season as a whole. Remember Chase took nearly 2 years off for this final arc. He names Tony's possible killer "Man in the Members Only Jacket" in the credits which is a complete throw back to opening episode "Members Only". Although I think the way the final scene is shot and edited makes it pretty clear Tony died, Chase is also hinting to us to watch those early episodes of the final season again.

comment #21

KeithNYC says ...

Sorry for the double post. I hope some people find this interesting besides me and Tim.

comment #22

tholl-yung says ...

Yes it's very interesting. I'm also happy you can see the cutting pattern. Can you graduate now and call the two headed monster of a cut what it is?

comment #23

Josh Massey says ...

Did anybody else just notice Tony LaRussa's inane decision to bat Aaron Rowand instead of Albert Pujols in the bottom of the 9th? Anyone?!?

Sorry, wrong message board.

comment #24

tholl-yung says ...

Do you have one ball or two?

comment #25

Josh Massey says ...

Three. It's weird, but some chicks like it.

comment #26

tholl-yung says ...

I'm getting bbq pork, spicy shrimp and wonton soup. long day. me love.

comment #27

actionman says ...

butt plugs!? fucking hysterical!

comment #28

malibugigolo says ...

HEY FOLKS!!!

So when is the finale of the show?

Does Sal (that's big pussy to the non fans) die?

comment #29

tholl-yung says ...

what, like ear plugs? do you have two um, oh never mind

comment #30

Pinko Punko says ...

I love jeffmcm distancing himself from the sometimes entertaining, many times very one-note HE comment boards. I thought you were captain of the gang, j. Whatever Jeff W. said, homie, you're soaking in it.

Josh, that was jaw-dropping of LaRussa- or was it- he is up there on the list of annoying managers.

comment #31

DavidF says ...

At this point I hope Chase just does an interview. I watched the scene for the first time since the night it aired and I don't care what anyone says - the MOST you can say is that it's ambiguous. Anything else you bring the table is all you.

All the s hot-by-shot theories discard red herrings (why show the USA Hat guy putting sugar in his coffee? why the laughing teens? why the boy scouts). When it comes to Members Only, no one can explain WHO he is, WHY he would kill Tony or WHY he would go to the washroom and come back when he has a clean shot from the front for five minutes. (When you're strongest piece of evidence is that the brand of jacket he wears is also the name of an episode you're starting to stretch...)

It's great TV and it's ambiguous and, hey, maybe Tony is dead. But it ain't there in black and white.

comment #32

tholl-yung says ...

David Chase, if you're trolling, did you ever get a producer or studio note asking you to put up a card on the 5th shot that said "sometime earlier" or "sometime later?"

DavidF, the only thing you know for sure is that a time cut was made between the 4th and 5th shot.
And there's a pregnant "moment" at the 3 min mark when someone else enters the diner.

comment #33

Michael says ...

KeithNYC, please don't this question as antagonism; it's asked in the spirit of debate:

Why is Bacala's 'never hear it coming' given so much weight, especially when Bobby pretty clearly saw it coming and probably felt it pretty good, too?

I guess I'm on the Death Sometime in the Not-So-Distant Future team...the entire episode was an exposition on how Tony has completely and utterly failed his family and doomed their future. The dinner with Meadow is one of the most painful, and surreal, scenes in recent memory (and has a Hall of Fame level reaction shot from Gandolfini). It just doesn't make sense to me to have death be so immediate after all of that; inevitable, yes, but not that soon.

comment #34

tholl-yung says ...

Screw the cinematographer for instructing us Tony didn't die a nano-second before the black or at the instant of blackness, but rather, in the blackness. When's the actor playing the Member's Only guy going to talk again:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/michael_smerconish/20070617_Head_Strong___The_secret_alternate_ending_to_Sopranos.html

comment #35

Tim says ...

DavidF - My original theory was the "ambiguous" ending as well. It fit in perfectly with Chase's whole motif. But that's just it - it fit in too perfectly. In Chase's world, an ambiguous ending would have been too easy. It's been done before (by him) throughout the run of the series. The only punk rock thing left for him to do would be to give us the unambiguous ending. He just wrapped it in seemingly ambiguous clothing. (I will now retire my use of the word "ambiguous").

Also, I don't know how you can get much more final than the originally sought (and much better IMO) 30 seconds of blackness at the end.

If you agree with the supposition that David Chase is an exacting auteur for television (and I do), then you must take every move he makes quite seriously. Especially with the knowledge that he took nearly 2 years to plan out the final stages of the show. If you think the ending was arbitrary or dubious, then you'd also have to think Melville wrote a story about a whale.

This is why Bacala's "never hear it coming" is so very important. Why would they choose that exact moment to flash back to in the penultimate episode? It's a gigantic clue that, taken with the detail of the last installment, screams out that Tony Soprano Is Dead. Not 6 months from now, not 5 years from now. Now.

comment #36

DavidF says ...

I hear ya, Tim. I don't think the "Tony is Dead" camp are totally out to lunch. I just personally don't subscribe.

Michael's post above duplicates my answer to the Bobby Baccala question. Bobby was giving a theory, not an answer about what it must be like dying. And when HE dies he gets shot he does not get the insta-black treatment. Neither does Sil (should he die). Phil Leotardo proably did, on the other hand.

You make good points about Chase's nature but I think it's equally valid (and equally punk) for him to throw in the Baccala flashback and NOT kill Tony. He's fucking with us, basically. I mean, obviously death is on Tony's mind! There are, unquestionably, hints that Tony is about to be killed. I just don't think that he is right then.

People who like Members Only for the shooter are grasping at straws in tying his name to an episode name (!!) or failing to explain who he is (ie what family he works for) or why he would go into the bathroom when there is no way a gun would be stored there and no reason he couldn't shoot Tony from the front beforehand.

IMHO, there has to be a context for Tony's death.

That said, the scene, starting with that time cut, does a great job putting you in Tony's head where any guy coming in the door could be coming for you at any time. That's what I got from the ending and I think that's all that matters, whether or not it IS the next guy coming through. That's what I get from Sakharov's comment too so that's what I'm sticking with...

comment #37

tholl-yung says ...

Which is sillier: Chase thought about planning Sopranos for 2 years while he was on break OR 30 seconds of black would have been better than 10?

"Now" means what? in the black, right before the black, or at the instant of black?

comment #38

Aunt Sassy says ...

"It's not important if Tony Soprano is dead or alive? In what ectoplasmic realm? Saying he may die in the next second or six months from now is like saying he could die 25 or 40 years into the future -- it's a meaningless statement. And we all know about the caviar and the aftertaste and all that -- that's just more bullshit evasiveness"

This from a man who berates American audiences for their inability to deal with even a hint of ambiguity in their entertainment.

I think what Chase did was brilliant. He held a mirror up to his audience, and those without an immagination found themselves lost in black void throwing a temper tantrum. Those that did have an imagination were able to participate in the narrative and create something much more lasting and meaningful. Art doesn't come to you, you come to it.

But I think Gene Hackman as Lex Luther said it best in Richard Donner's SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE.

"Miss Tessmacher, some people can read WAR & PEACE and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."

And on another note, Jeff, your buttplug and I both have the same opinion: you're full of shit.

comment #39

Tim says ...

T.Holly - Didn't realize I had to do another post for the literal-minded.

Obviously, Chase didn't slave away on his laptop for nearly 730 days to come up with the ending. I just take the man at his word that he requested such a long break in order to ruminate and come up with the final story arc.

30>10 - that's what Chase originally wanted and IMO would have really put the period at the end of the sentence.

And, "Now" means 3.2 seconds into the black. Duh.

comment #40

tholl-yung says ...

Tim, between you, me and Autntie, we're having a literal-minded fuck fest here. If he had made it 30, how many seconds in would "now" have been?

comment #41

tholl-yung says ...

OMG, DavidF, I love you, how did I miss this: "the scene, starting with THAT TIME CUT." You can count (scene internal) time cuts on two hands in the whole history of cinema.

Now, why such ominous picture and sound pattern-proofed cutting around 3 min?

comment #42

KeithNYC says ...

David F,
You make some interesting points. Here is my take. MOG has an easier shot from BEHIND Tony. Once he shoots Tony he will be able to walk straight to the door. Chase has the camera move slightly to the right to make sure we see MOG go to bathroom and to show us that it is behind Tony. If he sees his killer it does not tie into Bacala's quote as well. It also does not tie into Silvio's quote and experience of the Torciano murder (see my second post). It also has beautiful continuity w/ Tony's coma dream (see my second post) w/ Meadow being the last person Tony sees.
Your second point on WHY MOG would kill Tony is a better one. My feeling is Chase does not care. I think if you asked him he would say "it is inevitable". Tony has made so many enemies that it could be someone we dont even know about. I think the whole "Members Only Jacket" is a symbolic throwback to that episode. Eugene killed himself b/c Tony would not allow him and his family to "retire" to Florida. MOG is a subtle remainder of another life Tony was partially responsible for destroying. It is really "karmic" payback for Tony's misdeeds. In the episode "Chasing It" Carmela cries to Tony that she is worried about him all the time and that there are "a million possibilities" for how it can end for Tony. I believe Chase was setting us up for the fact that we may never know why T was killed. It doesn't matter that the NY/NJ war was over, Tony is never really safe and it finally caught up to him.
Also take a look at Chase's words in his only interview after the finale.
"No one was trying to be audacious, honest to God," he adds. "We did what we thought we had to do. No one was trying to blow people's minds, or thinking, 'Wow, this'll (tick) them off.' People get the impression that you're trying to (mess) with them and it's not true"

Now think about it, if Chase set the whole scene up as making the viewer think something monumental was going to happen and then nothing happens wouldn't that be the definition of "messing w/ people"? which Chase just went out of his way to tell us he did NOT do?

comment #43

JapAdapters says ...

I gotta agree with DavidF on this. I had my own interpretation after watching and thinking about the finale and in my analysis Tony lived. I've seen all the things other people have said that point to his death, and see their points. The problem is everyone is discounting the other "sides" analysis. and acting like it's THIS not THAT. Having seen both sides discussed and analized and all the good points that come with it, i don't see how it can be definiatively stated that Chase meant for there to be one interpretation. I thought, and think, it was intentionally ambigious. Maybe Tony lived in my mind because I wanted him to.

comment #44

tholl-yung says ...

KeithNYC, evidence in the visuals is contrary to Tony getting it from behind. There was an accomplice and Tony got it in the face.

comment #45

DavidF says ...

I find KeithNYC and T.Holly's points interesting...just not convincing.
Keith points to Chase's quote and asks:
"Now think about it, if Chase set the whole scene up as making the viewer think something monumental was going to happen and then nothing happens wouldn't that be the definition of "messing w/ people"?"

That's a good question. I guess my answer would be that it's not messing with people because one of the threads of the series has been that things don't have tidy endings. Life simply go on and on, as the Journey song not so subtely reminds us...until it's cut off :) Even if Chase, in his mind, did kill Tony it is clear that only a percentage of viewers "got it" which suggests that he knew he was messing with people one way or another. After all, despite his saying he didn't think people would get all hot and bothered you don't see him giving a definitive answer.

I think Chase knows how people obsess over details and sometimes throws in red herrings despite his protestations to the contrary. Just visit a David Lynch board to see people poring over details and asking questions that are, by definition, unanswerable. That's what we have here.

The time cut is interesting and notable but...I mean, people keep coming back to the guy wearing a Members Only Jacket and there was an episode called Members Only and Eugene wore a MO jacket...that just strikes me as beyond thinking Chase is a genius. 90% of Sopranos watchers don't know the names of episodes which are not aired - just in episode guides. Yeah, it's only ONE clue but it's a big one and it's awful awful thin.

The good news is that the discussions have been largely fascinating and when people are being polite instead of insanely dogmatic (as here) it's intelligent and reasonable as well. Still, nothing short of Chase saying it outright will convince me Tony is dead.

The important thing for those who missed the Spielberg bashing thread, is that JapAdapters and I have made up and are moving to Massachussets to get married. You're all invited, of course.

comment #46

KeithNYC says ...

DavidF,
Interesting remark about Chase and David Lynch. From what I have read about Chase, he is a huge fan of David Lynch. I do ask you to watch the diner scene using the POV theory that I laid out in my opening post as a guide. I think it may change your mind. Based on the way Chase shot and edited that scene w/ that "pattern" I just cant come to a conclusion other then that he is dead. I just don't see any other rational explanation. I do see your point about Chase's comments. If he is not "messing w/ us" and has one ending in mind then why not just tell us at this point? Does he really get off on the endless debate? or is it just that he feels he is a true "artist" who does not have to give anybody an explanation? My feeling is that he will never tell us for sure. Another thing on the "Members Only" thing. If it was just some episode from season 3 or so maybe I wouldn't give it as much thought. However, Chase took 2 years off to plan out the ending. He then names the opening episode of the final episode "Members Only". Remember, he has the ending already in his mind. Tony gets shot in that episode and then we have a 2 episode "coma-dream" that I feel (as I explained in detail above) is sprinkled w/ foreshadowing of T's death. Also remember, Chase went out of his way to call the final 9 episodes "the second part of season sixth" and not the 7th season. He really wants us to see all 21 episodes as a coherent whole.

comment #47

KeithNYC says ...

T-Holly,
I am a little lost on the whole "time cut" thing. Please explain to me how it clues into Tony's death. Tony's face completely fills the screen in that final shot and there really is no way to tell that someone is or is not behind him (Chase I think does this on purpose). MOG would probably come out of the bathroom to the side of Tony slightly behind him anyway. I just don't see any clues that any killer was facing Tony at that moment. The editing and directing in the scene sets it up so that we should see (where the blackness is) who is coming in through the door from Tony's POV. We know that this would be Meadow.

comment #48

JapAdapters says ...

But, David ... the winters ...

comment #49

tholl-yung says ...

Buck up... the winters. The time cut doesn't mean Tony's dead. The time cut gives Chase the artistic license not to finish the story. Chase isn't a lawless storyteller. We're not in the present tense on the B side of the time cut. It's such an antithetical cut, that it's a ginourmous decision, but it's passed off a fleeting cut. Editors and directors make careers keeping time linear and creating complementary angles to avoid time cuts. A time cut is not made willy nilly, it's monumental, you almost can't push the buttons.

The

comment #50

tholl-yung says ...

Now, mark the time in seconds that it takes for Members Only Guy to go from Tony to the bathroom door, 4 sec., so he's not approaching in the side angle before the front angle before the black out. I don't know what happens in the black, it's memory full, game over. And then there's that business with the door. After parking, parking, parking, we come back to side, young lovers/BIG door squeak/maybe faint bell, to front door, to Tony in one weird awkward long hold.

comment #51

tholl-yung says ...

I should have been a cop or a Crime Scene Investigator. If you want to know what it "looks" like if a shooter was behind Tony, go to 3:31 on the tape.

In the last side angle where shooter would be approaching behind Tony, the waitress happens to be there.

The last thing Tony looks up at is the next that happens. The last thing that happened didn't happen behind his back. Think POV and point of view.

comment #52

juanma says ...

ench">sexy+video+clip+french
clip+sexy+free
clip+sexy+wow
clip+video+exhibition+sexy
hey+sexy+wow+clip
rnb+sexy+clip
sexy+amateur+clip
sexy+clip+suède
telecharger+clip+hey+sexy+wow
best+sexy+video+clip
clip+sexy+fhm
clip+sexy+porno
clip+sexy+streep+tease+gratuit
dsf+and+sexy+and+sport+and+clip
mtv+clip+sexy
sexy+clip+sample
sexy+clip+video
sexy+pono+clip
telecharger+clip+sexy+wow+skyblog
clip+fat+movies+sexy
clip+gratos+sexy
clip+media+player+gratuit+sexy
clip+movies+sexy+moms+perverse
clip+sexy+censure
clip+sexy+mali
clip+sexy+x
clip+vida+o+sexy
femme+clip+sexy
free+movi+clip+sexy+video
hey+sexy+wow+info+clip
lord+kossity+clip+sexy+wow
sexy+clip+free
sexy+dvd+clip
sexy+sport+clip+download
sexy+video+clip+gratuit
telechargement+clip+video+sexy
video+clip+danseuse+sexy
video+clip+sexy+gay
diaporama+sexy+gratuit
sexy+diaporama
diaporama+and+sexy
diaporama+pps+sexy
pps+diaporama+sexy
diaporama+photo+sexy
diaporama+sexy+humour
diaporama+femme+sexy
diaporama+humour+sexy
fun+sexy+diaporama
humour+and+diaporama+and+sexy
sexy+bi+gay+diaporama
diaporama+and+pps+and+sexy
diaporama+homme+sexy
diaporama+infirmiere+sexy
diaporama+pin+up+sexy
diaporama+and+pps+and+sexy+and+sexe
diaporama+image+sexy
diaporama+pps+sexy+free
sexy+femme+diaporama
diaporama+pps+sexy+histoire
powerpoint+diaporama+sexy
sexy+beurette
photo+sexy+de+beurette
photo+beurette+sexy
blog+beurette+sexy
rencontre+gratuite+avec+beurette+sexy+sur+lille
beurette+grosse+sexy
beurette+sexy+gratuit
beurette+sexy+rebelles
hamida+beurette+sexy
photo+sexy+arabe+beurette+magrehbine+salope+pute
skyblog+beurette+sexy
belle+beurette+sexy
blog+perso+beurette+sexy
beurette+sexy+gartuit
beurette+and+sexy
beurette+indienne+sexy
galerie+beurette+sexy
beurette+sexy+photo
beurette+grosse+indienne+sexy
beurette+plus+sexy
beurette+sexy+page+perso
beurette+sexy+cam
beurette+sexy+est+chaude
beurette+sexy+nu
photo+beurette+sexy+gratuit
mangas+sexy
mangas+sexy+gratuit
image+mangas+sexy
photo+mangas+sexy
fond+d+ecran+mangas+sexy
video+sexy+de+mangas
video+de+mangas+sexy
image+sexy+mangas
wallpaper+mangas+sexy
photo+sexy+mangas
mangas+hot+sexy
mangas+sexy+video
dessin+mangas+sexy
gif+mangas+sexy
sexy+mangas+video
mangas+and+sexy
sexandtrash.com+sexy+mangas+sex.ht
fond+ecran+mangas+sexy+gratuit
mangas+hentai+sexy
mangas+sexy+toon
jeu+mangas+sexy
sexy+girl+mangas
sexy+girls+mangas
bd+mangas+sexy
mangas+sexy+hentai
video+mangas+sexy+telecharger
mangas+sexy+gratuie
sexy+mangas+gratuit
avatar+mangas+sexy
jeu+sexy+mangas
mangas+sexy+asiatique
mangas+sexy+gratuite
blog+mangas+sexy
mangas+sexy+porno
mangas+tres+sexy
sexy+mangas+girls
sexy+mangas+wallpaper
bd+lire+entierement+mangas+sexy
bd+sexy+mangas
blog+sexy+mangas
mangas+sexy+fesse
mangas+sexy+free
mangas+sexy+oav
jeu+mangas+sexy+gratuit
mangas+blog+sexy
mangas+lesbienne+sexy+gratuit
mangas+plus+sexy
mangas+sexy+gratuit.com
mangas+wallpaper+sexy
video+mangas+x+sexy
avatar+sexy+mangas
hentai+mangas+sexy
livre+mangas+sexy
mangas+anime+sexy
mangas+sexy+gif
mangas+sexy+gratuit+lire
meuf+sexy+mangas
sex+mangas+gratuit+photo+sexy
sexy+mangas+hentai
bd+?lire+enti?rement+mangas+sexy
femme+mangas+sexy+lesbienne+gratuit.com
figurine+sexy+mangas
galerie+mangas+sexy
image+gratuite+sexy+mangas
image+mangas+sexy+fan+art
jeu+flash+mangas+sexy
logo+sexy+mangas
mangas+gratuit+sexy
mangas+sexy+.com
mangas+sexy+animee
mangas+sexy+dbz
mangas+sexy+fond+d+ecran
mangas+sexy+girl
mangas+sexy+hot
mangas+sexy+nu
mangas+sexy+site+perso
mangas+ten+sexy+gratuit
mangas+x+sexy
sexy+nurse+mangas
toon+gay.ici+mangas+x.com+toon+sexy+toons.htm
video+porno+et+sexy+mangas
wallpaper+sexy+mangas
legs+sexy
sexy+legs+girl
sexy+legs+open+pussy+ass
sexy+legs+high+heels
between+legs+sexy
nude+sexy+legs
sexy+long+legs
women+sexy+legs
women+with+sexy+legs
bas+collant+legs+jambe+sexy
my+sexy+legs
sexy+legs+ass
sexy+legs+with+leisa+hart
sexy+and+legs
sexy+mature+legs
sexy+nylon+legs
legs+sexy+muscle+women
sexy+legs+links
sexy+legs+muscle+women
video+sexy+legs+muscle+women
sexy+big+legs
sexy+legs+in+lingerie
sexy+muscle+legs+women
legs+sexy+brunette
long+sexy+legs
sexy+legs+pics
sexy+muscle+legs
big+sexy+legs
hairy+pussy+sexy+legs
sexy+legs+photo
tenue+infirmiere+sexy
tenue+sexy+homme
tenue+sexy+papillon+rouge+fait+main
tenue+soiree+sexy
petite+tenue+sexy
tenue+sexy+ouverte
tenue+sexy+cuir
femme+tenue+sexy
etablissement+tenue+sexy
sexy+tenue
tenue+and+sexy
photo+tenue+sexy
lesbienne+tenue+sexy
catalogue+tenue+sexy
salope+tenue+sexy
tenue+sexy+movies+anal
tenue+super+sexy
tenue+tres+sexy
celebrite+et+star+tenue+sexy
femme+tenue+soiree+sexy
homme+tenue+sexy
photo+femme+tenue+sexy
sophie+davant+tenue+sexy
tenue+cuir+sexy
tenue+sexy+movies
tenue+beaucoup+plus+sexy
tenue+sexy+lapin
video+gratuite+tenue+sexy
charmante+tenue+sexy
girl+tenue+sexy+nu
soiree+tenue+sexy
tenue+femme+sexy
tenue+serveur+sexy
tenue+sexy+collant+ouvert
tenue+sexy+femme
tenue+sexy+infirmiere
tenue+sexy+latex
tenue+sportive+sexy
paris+hilton+tenue+sexy
photo+jeunnes+femme+tenue+sexy+soiree
photo+lesbienne+tenue+sexy
sportive+tenue+sexy
tenue+nuit+sexy
tenue+pompier+sexy+femme
tenue+sexy+ecoliere
tenue+sexy+fetichisme
tenue+sexy+obligatoire
tenue+sexy+police
chat+sexy+gratuit
sexy+chat
chat+gratuit+sexy
live+chat+sexy
chat+rencontre+sexy
chat+and+sexy
chat+webcam+sexy
chat+sexy+avec+webcam
free+sexy+chat
chat+sexy+cam+gratuit
sexy+chat+gratuit
chat+blog+sexy
live+chat+sexy+gratuit
chat+sexy+webcam
forum+live+chat+gratuit+sexy
webcam+chat+sexy
chat+and+sexy+and+gratuit
chat+avec+sexy
chat+sexy+free
chat+sexy+pas
chat+sexy+totalement+gratuit
sexy+chat+com
visio+chat+sexy+gratuit
chat+sexy+chat+rencontre
forum+chat+sexy
rencontre+sexy+chat
sexy+cam+chat
chat+femme+sexy
chat+rencontre+sexy+gratuit
chat+sexy+gratuit+avec+webcam
chat+sexy+sans+abonnement
easy+chat+rencontre+sexy
live+sexy+chat
sexy+show+free+chat
chat+belgique+sexy
chat+sexy+ado
chat+sexy+adulte
belle+ronde+sexy+chat+gratuit
chat+avec+sexy+gratuit
chat+avec+video+sexy+gratuit
chat+cam+gratuit+sexy
chat+cam+sexy+france
chat+gay+sexy
chat+sexy+cuir
chat+sexy+fr
chat+sexy+francais
chat+sexy+gratuit+avec+cam
chat+sexy+gratuit+homme
chat+sexy+rencontre
chat+video+sexy+gratuit
free+chat+sexy
gronde+chat+sexy
live+chat+gratuit+sexy
live+webcam+sexy+chat
msn+chat+sexy
sexy+video+chat
lady+sexy
hey+sexy+lady
hot+sexy+lady
shaggy+hey+sexy+lady
le+clip+hey+sexy+lady
sexy+red+lady
sonnerie+hey+sexy+lady
free+pic+of+lady+barbara+sexy+foot
lady+barbara+sexy
sexy+lady+shoes
sexy+hot+lady
sexy+black+lady
lady+sonia+sexy
party+sexy+lady
sexy+and+lady
sexy+lady+bitch
sexy+lady+pussy
sexy+lady+super
sexy+lady+vidio
shaggy,hey+sexy+lady
beauty+lady+sexy
shaggy+sexy+lady
skyblog+sexy+lady+so+chic+so+fresh
lady+asia+sexy
lady+crazy+sexy+skyblog
lady+heel+sexy
old+lady+sexy
parole+golden+sexy+lady
sexy+office+lady
sexy+sex+lady
http://

search.jubii.dk/cgi-bin/pursuit?cat=loc&query=site:tagebuch.aol.de+star+sexy
photo+star+sexy
photo+sexy+de+star
star+academy+sexy
star+sexy+nu
video+star+sexy
star+nu+sexy
star+francaise+sexy
star+photo+sexy
video+sexy+star
sexy+star+nu
star+ac+sexy
star+and+sexy
les+star+les+plus+sexy
star+nu+et+sexy
photo+sexy+star+academy
blog+star+sexy
star+wars+sexy
star+sexy+photo
image+de+star+sexy
star+arabe+sexy
star+sexy+gratuit
alexia+star+academy+sexy
sexy+star+academy
star+academy+photo+sexy
maud+star+ac+sexy
star+academie+sexy
star+sexy+et+nu
wallpaper+star+sexy
les+star+sexy+en+string
sexy+star+ac
star+tres+sexy
fond+d+ecran+star+sexy
fond+ecran+star+sexy+women
maud+star+academy+sexy
photo+sexy+star+ac
star+nu+sexy+et+poil
video+star+sexy+gratuit
sexy+photo+star
sexy+star+video
sexy+video+star
skyblog+des+star+sexy
star+feminine+sexy
star+en+lingerie+sexy
star+pictures+sexy
star+sexy+video
lingerie+sexy+star
nude+sexy+star
photo+and+star+and+sexy
sexy+star+carmen+electra
photo+star+nu+sexy
sexy+star+photo
star+du+porno+sexy
star+sexy+francaise
banniere+star+sexy
femme+star+sexy
sexy+best+nude+actress+star
sexy+girlz.net+fr+photo+star+nues.htm
sexy+porn+star
star+nu+sexy+photo
celebrite+et+star+tenue+sexy
photo+de+star+sexy+gratuit
sofia+star+academy+sexy
star+academy+photo+maud+sexy
star+galerie+sexy
star+palace+sexy+co
star+sexy+site
star+sexy+tv
star+video+sexy
vedette+star+nu+sexy
hilary+duff+nu+star+sexy
image+sexy+de+star
photo+sexy+star+arabe
photo+sexy+de+star+francaise
sexy+and+star
sexy+porn+star+big+tits
sexy+star+string
star+femme+arabe+sexy
star+sexy+photo+gratuit
star+sexy+poil
star+du+x+sexy
video+sexy+star+academy
alexia+star+ac+sexy
alizee+sexy+star
all+star+sexy
les+belle+star+sexy
calendrier+de+star+sexy
charisma+carpenter+nu+star+sexy
emilie+star+ac+sexy
fake+sexy+star
galerie+and+photo+and+sexy+and+star
galerie+photo+sexy+de+star
image+sexy+star+academy
maud+sexy+star+academy+forum
photo+star+nu+et+sexy
pps+star+sexy+gratuit
sexy+star+calendrier
sexy+star+nue.com
sexy+star+porno
cam+sexy
web+cam+sexy+gratuite
web+cam+sexy
video+cam+sexy
web+cam+sexy+gratuit
meuf+sexy+cam
sexy+web+cam
sexy+cam+gratuit
live+cam+sexy
cam+sexy+gratuit
free+cam+sexy
sexy+cam+cam
sexy+cam+hot
sexy+live+cam
msn+cam+sexy
chat+sexy+cam+gratuit
msn+sexy+cam
sexy+cam+gratuite
sexy+net+show+live+cam
video+sexy+cam
cam+sexy+msn
video+web+cam+sexy
web+sexy+cam
sexy+cam+foto
photo+cam+sexy
sexy+real+cam
sex+sexy+web+cam
sexy+and+cam
sexy+girl+cam
sexy+string+cam
web+cam+sexy+free
web+cam+perso+sexy
kate+sexy+cam
sexy+cam+free
sexy+glamour+topless+blonde+cam
so+sexy+cam
sexy+devant+cam
web+cam+sexy+amateur+grauit
weeb+cam+sexy
cam+sexy+hot
dial+cam+sexy
sexy+live+show+cam+to+cam
video+cam+gratuit+sexy+amatrice
cam+live+sexy
free+sexy+cam
photo+sexy+cam
sexy+cam+chat
veille+sexy+cam
web+and+cam+and+sexy+and+gratuit
capture+cam+sexy
hotmail+sexy+cam
rencontre+cam+sexy
string+sexy+cam
web+and+cam+and+sexy
cam+sexy+meuf
coquin+sexy+cam
rencontre+sexy+cam
sexy+cam+hot+gratuit
sexy+cam+msn
sexy+gratuit+cam
sexy+sharon+sex+cam
spy+cam+women+room+sexy+francaise
web+cam+sexy+amatrice
web+cam+sexy+gratutie
beurette+sexy+cam