edited by Moisés Chiullan

The Third Man (Criterion Blu-ray)
This title in particular has been the subject of a good deal of controversy on Elsewhere (among other sites), message boards, and email lists across the web. No one seems to talk about much aside from the "Grain Issue." Since the grain (or overabundance thereof) is the obvious elephant in the room, I'm going to address it before getting on to the additional content on display here, of which there is much to see and thoroughly enjoy. (continued)

Upcoming

December 31

Defiance

Good

January 2

Cargo 200

January 7

Silent Light

January 9

After Dark Horrorfest 2009

Bride Wars

How About You

Not Easily Broken

The Unborn

Yonkers Joe

January 16

Chandni Chwok to China

Cherry Blossoms

Hotel for Dogs

My Bloody Valentine 3-D

Notorious

Paul Blart: Mall Cop

January 21

Of Time and the City

Return of Klaus Kent

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That people are even bringing this topic up and exploring it with a straight face is ridiculous. I'm repeating myself, but remember that 1978 SNL skit about Klaus Kent in Germany? Said it all.

Geezer moviegoers<< previous | next >>Superman's Friday figures

Posted by Jeffrey Wells on June 30, 2006 at 3:26 PM

comment #1

Alex says ...

I don't really care about the change but I'm wondering why not just dump the whole phrase. "And all that stuff" is just really clunky and (maybe it works in the movie; haven't seen it yet) silly.

Posted by Alex at June 30, 2006 3:34 PM

comment #2

Abe Goldfarb says ...

It really works in the movie. It's a reflection of the more callous age to which Superman, er, returns. It's both a fill-in-the-blanks giggle for fans and a way of saying, "See why we need him?" It's dramatically supported, and it's in no way glib (nothing in the film is glib, to its eternal credit). That people are trying to cook up a controversy around this is positively absurd. Superman comes off, in Singer's vision, as nothing less than the secular American messiah. He's as USA as apple pie, make no mistake, and it seems to me that this is just an attempt to stir some shit after the homophobic rambling about "Is Supes gay?" failed to produce any worthwhile ink. Anyway, it's a hell of a picture, no kidding, and it renders any such theorizing moot.

Posted by Abe Goldfarb at June 30, 2006 5:02 PM

comment #3

NYCBusybody says ...

Yeah, I agree, Alex. I read an interview with the screenwriter where he said that from the very beginning, they knew they didn't want to say "American way". So why not just never use the line at all, in any form? Very, very few people would have cared that it wasn't said at all - I don't remember it being used in the Donner Superman's at all, and no one minded then. But by using it in the form they chose, it will definitely smack some people as not right, particularly those that do see Superman as a part of uniquely American culture (for good or bad).

Posted by NYCBusybody at June 30, 2006 5:06 PM

comment #4

Chris says ...

Omitting the key line sticks out in this otherwise faithful adaptation like a sore thumb. It's amazing how a member of Hollywood's creative elite can make an overtly political act like this and then feign astonishment when the audience reacts to it.

I heard a talk show host discussing this today, saying that it's a shame "certain elements" have to politicize everything. But abridging the classic line was the overtly political act.

I saw the movie last night in a virtually deserted theatre. I don't think this very well-publicized bit of anti-Americanism is the only reason it's underperforming, but it's not helping it. Too bad - I basically agree with Wells' take on the film. I'll even go so far to say that if it makes a bunch of money it would be Best Picture-bait. But it's not going to make a bunch of money and the interpretation that it's unpatriotic isn't helping.

By the way, the Drudge Report just started hyping this film now, but Libertas film site "broke" this story I think a week or two ago. It's been floating around the more conservative parts of the Internet since then. I think it's hurting the movie.

Contrast Superman Returns with Spiderman, where Sam Raimi added an American flag and a sequence where a NYC crowd throws trash and verbally accosts the terroristic Green Goblin. Some filmmakers understand what an American icon is, others don't.

Posted by Chris at June 30, 2006 5:25 PM

comment #5

Chris says ...

That said, I have an idea for a viral campaign on the Internet to save this film.

Play up that it's a shadow conservative film using these two facts -

1) Lex Luthor's henchmen Kumar is OBVIOUSLY an al Queda type he met in the can.

2) In the last scenes of the movie, an illegal alien uses a city's emergency room and skips out without paying. This highlights the damage illegal immigration does to our municipal economies.

Posted by Chris at June 30, 2006 5:28 PM

comment #6

travis b. says ...

do we really need superman to be a jingoistic, nationalistic piece of propaganda? if someone is going into a movie with bitter feelings over one omitted line that really hasn't been associated with the character in some time, then maybe that person shouldn't be going to the movies at all. i'm sorry, i just think this speaks volumes of the problems with our society right now. we're upset because superman doesn't speak the words "american way" or have an american flag in a film, yet we turn a blind eye to some of the idiocies that have been occurring in the government in the past week. quite disgusting really.

Posted by travis b. at June 30, 2006 5:59 PM

comment #7

Mike Gebert says ...

"The ideal hasn't changed. I think when people say 'American way,' they're actually talking about what the 'American way' meant back in the '40s and '50s, which was something more noble and idealistic."

Like what, segregation?

Posted by Mike Gebert at June 30, 2006 6:06 PM

comment #8

NYCBusybody says ...

That's exactly the point I made on another thread, Mike Gebert. Jim Crow? Women barely being allowed to work? I think, for all our faults, America is closer now to the "American way" then we were in the 30's-50's.

People liking the American-ness of Superman is not ALWAYS kneejerk patriotic sense of American superiority, certainly not in my case. It's simply a matter of feeling that Superman was uniquely American, a uniquely American creation, whatever the entails, for good or bad. In the same way that Brits would be upset if an American played James Bond or King Arthur, de-Americanizing Superman sits wrong with many people, not just conservatives.

Posted by NYCBusybody at June 30, 2006 6:11 PM

comment #9

NYCBusybody says ...

In addition...it's not like I think Superman should go around waving an American flag and saying "hey pal, let's have a beer and watch a Cubs game!" to everyone he saves.

It's the EFFORT that went into DE-americanizing him that strikes me as weird and calculated.

Posted by NYCBusybody at June 30, 2006 6:15 PM

comment #10

NYCBusybody says ...

Well, I guess I DO understand it, considering the American government is not popular around the world right now, and in my opinion, it shouldn't be. I'm no Bush supporter.

That's why I think my point is that it's more about American CULTURE, than politics, government, etc. It's broader than what's happened this week, or since 2003, or 2000.

God, I've posted three straight times. On a Friday night. I hate myself and want to die.

Posted by NYCBusybody at June 30, 2006 6:22 PM

comment #11

travis b. says ...

nyc...

i see where you're coming from, but it's not like they've really done anything crazy to the character that isn't american. it's not like they had a british actor playing superman. or changed the locale from metropolis to somewhere in canada. or even moved superman's childhood home from the midwest to someplace that is not instantly recognizable as as "down home americana." in fact, they haven't made any changes whatsoever except for the change of one line. i think people need to look within to see what is american, and not be told what is and what isn't american.

Posted by travis b. at June 30, 2006 6:59 PM

comment #12

NYCBusybody says ...

Fair enough Travis, and that's a good point. I just think they should have avoided the line altogether is what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting anything rash or outlandish. Just chuck the line, avoid the reaction.

Posted by NYCBusybody at June 30, 2006 7:41 PM

comment #13

Zach says ...

Considering the reaction, I'm betting Singer and his team wish they'd omitted the line as well. I really doubt they wanted to cause a controversy about Superman being un-American. Hindsight is 20-20.

The negative internet buzz on this film really amazes me, considering how great a movie it is.

Posted by Zach at June 30, 2006 9:05 PM

comment #14

Zach says ...

It kind of seems like people want to create a controversy out of ANYTHING.

Superman is gay!
Superman is anti-american!
Superman is a flop becuase it made 21 million its opening day!

It really is a bit tiresome. The internet has become a forum for wacky people to express wacky views anonymously.

Posted by Zach at June 30, 2006 9:06 PM

comment #15

addison says ...

I was wondering when someone was going to point out that Superman is an illegal immigrant! Too bad he can fly over any fence we build around our borders... :-)

Posted by addison at June 30, 2006 9:17 PM

comment #16

Larry says ...

"The American Way" means a lot of things, including fighting for freedom and having a sense of fair play. It doesn't mean you have to believe America has always lived up to its ideals. (Though if you believe America is a bad force in the world, overall, that's something else.)

Also, while we may be cynical about a lot of things today, we were plenty cynical back in the 70s, too. When Christopher Reeves said the line in 1978, it was meant to sound corny, though refreshingly corny.

Posted by Larry at June 30, 2006 10:29 PM

comment #17

Larry says ...

Yes, I know, it's Christopher Reeve and George Reeves.

Posted by Larry at June 30, 2006 10:31 PM

comment #18

Jay says ...

Larry just mentioned it as a side comment above but the entire line was very much in the 1978 Donner film. Supes states his reason for being during his "date" with Lois and she responded with the appropriate cynicism. Which is what Singer should have done here to avoid this mess. I'm also curious what JW's point is in his original post. It is important, crucial even, that Supes was raised with middle-american values. Yes if was raised in Germany and his formative years coincided with the rise of Nazism then he would have become a "Supernazi." It's his traditional American values combined with his amazing abilities that makes him the hero that he is... to fellow Americans and to the rest of the world.

Posted by Jay at June 30, 2006 10:47 PM

comment #19

Alex says ...

Same Alex as in the first comment.

I saw it tonight and within the context of the film and the character who says the line it works pretty well. I don't have a problem with it, though it is a change that would so obviously dig at some people that it is hard to believe they didn't expect it.

However, the movie overall is really bad so the quality of the line really ends up being unimportant. It has been a long time since I checked my watch so many times during a movie.

Posted by Alex at June 30, 2006 11:08 PM

comment #20

Anonymous says ...

This isn't so much towards the film as the current state of the character...

To this day, I think one of the most potent and subversive Bush pop critiques was, in the DC Comics, to have Lex Luthor become President. That a corporate evil was in the White House and Superman had to save the day against the status quo was brilliant from the DC editors.

Of course, in the current comics contnuity, when it comes to jingoistic characters, even Captain America is a fugitive because of his pro-civil liberties stances.

Posted by Anonymous at July 1, 2006 12:57 AM

comment #21

zoey says ...

It's kind of ironic that the movie starring Adrien Brody, Ben Affleck, and Diane Lane coming out later this year about George Reeves was forced to change its name for Truth Justice and the American Way to Hollywoodland because of some copyright infringement thing. Of course, the movie explores Reeves's possible murder or suicide so it would not have been presenting the idealistic American Way.

Posted by zoey at July 1, 2006 4:15 AM

comment #22

Rich says ...

Isn't it ironic that the American Way is such a vile, repulsive concept that Congress is trying to figure out what to do about 10-20 million people who are trying desperately to get a piece of it?

I agree that American Way can be construed to mean many things, but as expressed in the comic/radio serial/television show/original movies it has always been the ideal. The problem is confusing the American Way with the actions of any particular government. Once, Captain America was asked whether he was loyal to the administration. He grabbed the flag and replied, "I am loyal only to the dream." And remember that part of the dream is the ability to debate and change those things you feel are unjust. I think Superman stands for that and always has. It's clear from the recent Supes documentary that Donner and the Salkinds recognized it and included in the 1978 movie.

If the screenwriters of SR could not recognize that and were not skillful enough to make clear that distinction, then they should have just dropped the whole thing. Anything else is just pandering to the tentpole audience, which Jeff generally despises.

Posted by Rich at July 1, 2006 4:49 AM

comment #23

zoey says ...

"Once, Captain America was asked whether he was loyal to the administration. He grabbed the flag and replied, "I am loyal only to the dream."

Rich, you are right. That's it right there.

Posted by zoey at July 1, 2006 5:55 AM

comment #24

NYCBusybody says ...

"If the screenwriters of SR could not recognize that and were not skillful enough to make clear that distinction, then they should have just dropped the whole thing."

Well said by Rich again, and really the point I've been making on this thread. You're either going to come off as too calculating and unskillful (which I think they did) or pander to flag-waving far righties (which they shouldn't). Shoulda just dropped the whole thing

Posted by NYCBusybody at July 1, 2006 6:43 AM

comment #25

Chris says ...

Do you all think this is part of the media whisper campaign that seems to have been in effect against this movie for several months now? First the ludicrous assertion that this was the "gay" Superman (when he spends the whole movie pining for Lois Lane), then the outrageous, overboard overestimation of the film's budget (this seemed to get a lot of press, I saw estimates up to $260 million and heard a local critic claim it was $300 million; the official line is that it was much below this and I am willing to take them at their word) and now the omission of the "the American way" from the movie.

Why does the entertainment establishment have such a grudge against this film? They have been against it for months. And it seems like from the deserted theatre I saw it in and my buddy's report that it was dead last night when he saw it, that it's more than succeeded. Hollywood needs some big hits, if it was a stinker movie I could understand it, but it's prettty dang good.

What's going on here?

Posted by Chris at July 1, 2006 8:21 AM

comment #26

Chris says ...

In the previous post I meant "media flap over omission of 'American way' from the movie."

Posted by Chris at July 1, 2006 8:29 AM

comment #27

Nicol D says ...

There is much to like about Singer's version of Superman. There is much to not like. I am mixed on the film as a whole.

One of the things to not like is the omission of 'American Way'.

Why? Becuase it is who he is.

Anyone who does not understand this, who needs this explained to them does not understand the character. That is why this film is going to struggle...and I have seen it twice already.

Reeve's Superman was very international but he was also an American patriot and always referenced the flag or white house.

I think Spiderman has become the new Superman for many. His films are littered with patriotic references and in the new 'Civil War' series, Spiderman, not Captain America takes what is ostensibly a conservative/Republican view of defending one's country.

If you like non-American Superman, fine.

Millions do not and that will hurt the film at the box office.

WB should have thought that issue through long and hard before allowing it to be made. Better to not include the line at all than just say 'and all that stuff'.

Posted by Nicol D at July 1, 2006 8:49 AM

comment #28

kadoogan says ...

For those who haven't seen Erik Lundegaard's history of "the American Way" yet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/opinion/30lundegaard.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

(reg rqrd I do believe)

Posted by kadoogan at July 1, 2006 9:07 AM

comment #29

zoey says ...

"Better to not include the line at all than just say 'and all that stuff'."

Nicole, that is it exactly. The "all that stuff" addition serves to denigrate whatever wording was left out, treating it as superfluous...not of consequence.

Posted by zoey at July 1, 2006 9:25 AM

comment #30

Bob says ...

Nicol:
"I think Spiderman has become the new Superman for many. His films are littered with patriotic references and in the new 'Civil War' series, Spiderman, not Captain America takes what is ostensibly a conservative/Republican view of defending one's country."

Wow, this is going to sound nerdy, but...

In "Civil War," Spidey is (at least partially coerced into) fighting on the side of a broad, Big Government beaurocracy program that wants to register and control the rights of superheroes to use their powers. That it's framed as a government infringement on civil liberties in the wake of a 9/11-style tragedy is obviously a paralell to the Neo-Cons, but the actual idea of what's being fought over is closer to government-mandated gun control, which technically puts Spidey et al on the left. Appropriately, they've got Captain America fighting on the other "freedom first" side, ("you can have my superpowers when you take them from my cold dead hands," basically) which basically makes sense considering the character is supposed to be a time-displaced WWII Veteran.

Posted by Bob at July 1, 2006 10:39 AM

comment #31

travis b. says ...

nicol:

wait, wait, wait. didn't this "non-american" superman save america in SR? did he not save american citizens? whatever happened to the idea of "show not tell."

and for your assertation of spider-man...i'm fairly sure the character has always been on the run from the law. but, hey, so are some of the republicans in office. yeah, i can see how you make that assumption ;-)

Posted by travis b. at July 1, 2006 11:15 AM

comment #32

Nicol D says ...

Travis,

'show not tell'

Do you really think the line was left out for artistic, and not political/corporate reasons?

Y'know what bothers me more than leaving out the line; it's the way WB won't fess up to the reasons why it is not there.

Kinda like how Madonna now doesn't have the balls to say that the reason that she 'crucifies' herself on-stage is to show her hatred and her contempt for Catholics. Now she says it's because she is trying to show love...

Bullshit!

I can respect an artist if they are at least honest about why they are doing what they are doing but when they do not even have the balls to say 'We do not want Superman to be perceived as a Republican', it takes a special kind of spineless jackal.

By leaving the line out it calls more attention to the fact that it is not there and that Superman is indeed the man they do not want him to be.

Again, the fact that WOM on this is spreading and it is not what they hoped for should teach them a lesson for the sequel...unless its already too late.

Posted by Nicol D at July 1, 2006 1:50 PM

comment #33

travis b. says ...

nicol,

i'm sorry, i just don't buy into your interpretation of this. i think the character has been defined by his actions within the last five to ten years without the "truth, justice, american way" tag. just look at the cartoons and the comics. there's very little of that in there. that's fine that you want that in there, but i just think you're looking at a superman from a certain era, and not the way he's been portrayed of late. part of the reason for his longevity is the ability for the character to mold itself and evolve. of course, you may deter this type of evolution as "nothing" but to some it means that the character isn't one note and able to persevere as long as it has.

i've brought the reasons for the "truth, justice, american way" line up before in other threads, and you've usually dismissed them as "university propaganda" or "liberal b.s.", so i'm not going to bring it up again. if you want to see it, you can find it yourself on here. or again, do some research on your own. i'm not dismissing it, but it was definitely a product of a certain time and political ideal.

and since when does being "american" mean being a "republican." i didn't know that to be an "american" one had to sit behind a specific party.

as for word of mouth...everyone i've talked to (i.e. in person, not faceless posturing via the internet) has loved it.

Posted by travis b. at July 1, 2006 2:19 PM

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